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MagicPatrick
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Post subject: Intermittent Starting
 Posted: Jun 25, 2010 - 04:54 AM
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Member
Joined: Aug 02, 2009
Posts: 205
Location: Williamsport, Pa
Status: Offline
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For 1, my shift knob (ATX) has a sweet spot in park or it won't turn over.
Secondly and my main concern, is frequent times it will turn over but not fire.
I find myself shutting off the radio and all other accesories as soon as I hop in,
"Shush kids! Just for a minute...",
pop the key in and turn to the first position and listen for the Feul Sender to hum.
Keep in mind, in the 2 years I've owned this car the Service Engine Soon light has NEVER come on.
Only when I have to do my little trick. I'll try to be descriptive to help
others this has never happened too, vets just roll your eyes and
mentally prepare the same type of answer.
Note* I own 2/3 of the Ford service manuals. (Electical and Service)
This is a 93 4cyl Tempo GL, approx 170k miles but very well kept.
Something is locking out the fuel sender. When I hop in and turn the key
it will turn over but not fire. So I try it again carefully listening for the hum.
Nothing... So at that point I simply turn the key to the 1st position
5 consecutive times and wait 1 minute. Then the service light comes on and
I'm good to go! This happens about once every 3 months, or 1k miles +/-.
It doesn't seem to care if I'm driving to the corner store or Washington D.C.
This last time, today, Had been the first I tried starting the car in 4 days.
What are the common, KNOWN, or obvious causes?
Where should I start, and is it too late to pull codes on it? |
_________________
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- 93 2.3L GL 4 door K2 Donor (Parts For SALE) "Ellie"
- 92 3.0L GL 4 door K3/K2 "The NECROMANCER"
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 25, 2010 - 06:44 AM
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Posting Freak
Joined: Jul 13, 2007
Posts: 638
Location: California
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It may be the relay is worn and not making contact, or the wiring might have a bad connection, but that's unlikely because it wouldn't change from try to next try. Same reason pump problems is not the likely cause.
A bad relay should set a code which is different, I believe, than a bad pump--but I'm not going to look it up right now, 'cause I haven't had much sleep lately. And yes, it is worth pulling the codes.
If you have the computer terminal so the two connections are on top and the four are below (as in the picture here), the right bottom is circuit #97 and grounding it will activate the relay and should cause the pump to run, assuming the ignition is turned on. That is a good way to test the circuit and prevent switch problems from interfering. |
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infinity96
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 25, 2010 - 07:17 AM
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Newbie
Joined: Jun 20, 2010
Posts: 23
Location: Laramie, WY
Status: Offline
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| Your shift problem is more than likely your neutral safety switch, either needs adjusting or replacing. |
_________________
1989 Ford Tempo GL 2.3 VIN X Auto Trans
Paid $100 for it, and it runs....
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MagicPatrick
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 25, 2010 - 09:17 PM
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Member
Joined: Aug 02, 2009
Posts: 205
Location: Williamsport, Pa
Status: Offline
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Thanks Old40rds! That's definately something to look at and test the next time it does it. My goal though is to hopefully pinpoint what it is before then. Lol. If I'm reading this right, the other side of the fuel relay is fed by #22 on the PCM. Something, mass air flow, air intake temperature sensor, or pressure feedback EGR sensor, might not be responding. Not trying to answer my own question here, lol.
When I reset the key 5 times, does that do anything to the PCM? I had a dodge shadow that 3 times brought up an idiot light code via flashes. 5 times cleared the current stored memory. Obviously these cars are nothing like that, but i'm just asking if doing that really does anything or is it just a coincidence.
Thanks Infinity96, I'll be looking into that next! |
_________________
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- 93 2.3L GL 4 door K2 Donor (Parts For SALE) "Ellie"
- 92 3.0L GL 4 door K3/K2 "The NECROMANCER"
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MagicPatrick
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 25, 2010 - 09:27 PM
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Member
Joined: Aug 02, 2009
Posts: 205
Location: Williamsport, Pa
Status: Offline
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Oh, and before I forget!
What/where is this PC/ED manual? "Powertrain Control & Emissions Diagnostic Manual"
I've searched all over online, and ebay and can't find anything...
And how comes there's not a specific section in the main service manual?
Maybe there is and I'm just not finding it, That's why I'm asking... |
_________________
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- 93 2.3L GL 4 door K2 Donor (Parts For SALE) "Ellie"
- 92 3.0L GL 4 door K3/K2 "The NECROMANCER"
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 25, 2010 - 09:36 PM
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Posting Freak
Joined: Jul 13, 2007
Posts: 638
Location: California
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Turning the key off and on should not affect the PCM; disconnecting power to the PCM will clear its memory as well as disconnecting the STI wire while codes are being displayed.
The neutral switch adjustment does control whether the starter gets a signal, but shouldn't affect the PCM either.
If there has been a relay problem recently, its code should be in the "continuous memory" so pulling codes now should still be worth doing.
BTW, temperamental switches and fussy lever positions can be good anti-theft devices!
The Emissions manual is quite large and covers all, or most Fords for that (and preceding) years. I have gotten one from EBay, but being old, used books, they aren't always available or listed. You might find a seller of Ford manuals and ask him about one, but that risks letting him set a higher price. I'd just keep watching. |
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MagicPatrick
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 25, 2010 - 09:45 PM
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Member
Joined: Aug 02, 2009
Posts: 205
Location: Williamsport, Pa
Status: Offline
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I just called autozone here in Williamsport and they don't pull codes on anything older than 96'.
So I guess I'll be doing it manually then...
Thanks for the info on the book! Happen to have the ISBN, book number? Might be easier to find it that way. |
_________________
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- 93 2.3L GL 4 door K2 Donor (Parts For SALE) "Ellie"
- 92 3.0L GL 4 door K3/K2 "The NECROMANCER"
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wvginseng
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 25, 2010 - 10:42 PM
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Active Member
Joined: Jul 24, 2007
Posts: 308
Location: New Martinsville WV
Status: Offline
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| abebooks.com might find one on there |
_________________
1985 Red Tempo ATX 84,000
1985 Brown Tempo ATX 297,000
1985 Brown Tempo MTX 261,000
1985 Black Tempo MTX 79,000
1984 Grey Tempo ATX 165,000
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MagicPatrick
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 13, 2010 - 06:57 AM
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Member
Joined: Aug 02, 2009
Posts: 205
Location: Williamsport, Pa
Status: Offline
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Where is the physical location of the fuel pump relay? Within the sending unit itself?
I'm not getting anything now. Pump is D.O.A.
Edit:
Would it suprise anyone if I said it rained all day?
Now that my memory is jogging, it was raining the last time it let me sit. As for the codes, I never got them because it started working. Perhaps because it wasn't raining. Ugghh... I'm not just reaching for crap here. Just stating the obvious. Recently I changed my plugs, wires, cap, and ignition coil since they appeared to be long overdo. In doing so I had the battery disconnected for quite some time. Codes begone I reckon... |
_________________
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- 93 2.3L GL 4 door K2 Donor (Parts For SALE) "Ellie"
- 92 3.0L GL 4 door K3/K2 "The NECROMANCER"
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PerformanceWithEconomy
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 13, 2010 - 05:37 PM
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Webmaster
Joined: Dec 23, 2007
Posts: 2335
Location: South Suburbs of Chicago
Status: Offline
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"Where is the physical location of the fuel pump relay?"
That's a good question MagicPatrick.
The 1993 Ford Tempo / Topaz Service Manual doesn't show a stand alone modular relay in the wiring diagram. Having said that, it shows how to test a stand alone relay just a few pages later. NO mention is made of where this relay is located though. I have to assume that you're looking at the same thing that I am, as it also refers to the "Powertrain Control / Emissions Diagnosis Manual that you make mention of.
Further digging may turn something up in the Service Manual and / or the Electrical / Vacuum manual that I have, but I've got a TON of things to get done. Will dig into this as soon as i can and post what i find. It may be a day or two though. Hopefully, someone else that has dealt with something similar will share their knowledge with us. Sean
< |
_________________
92 White / Red 2.3 MTX 130K miles, 93 Cayman Green / Grey 2.3 MTX 140K miles, 94 White / Grey 2.3 MTX 196K miles, 94 Red / Grey 2.3 ATX 70K miles, SouthSide Chicago
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MagicPatrick
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 13, 2010 - 08:47 PM
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Member
Joined: Aug 02, 2009
Posts: 205
Location: Williamsport, Pa
Status: Offline
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Ok I went through the electrical book with a fine tooth comb and found the pump/sender goes Directly to pin #5 on the CCRM, Constant Control Relay Module located near the drivers side strut tower. Left of the ECC. That too I never knew where it was, right in my face lol. I went to autozone today and purchased an ACTRON (Precision Electronics Solutions) Code Scanner - Ford, Lincoln, Mercury (CP9015). The autozone inventory number is #002396.
I mentioned in the similar topic posted in Mechanical & Suspension That autozone DOES NOT STOCK said relay. Napa however stocks a harness for one. So does it really exist? Is it possible some cars have the CCRM and not a relay, and vice versa>?
So, in summary of todays mysterious triumphs, The only code I got was |||| ||| or 43, cold O2 sensor. Well duh, I couldn't start the car. So I set it back on hold, hopped in, switched key to OFF, then back onto ON* and guess what happened>?
We got fuel pump.
What the fricken heck....?
Posting vids on youtube, not much to see... just documentary my dear.
*Edit-Previously said ACC, I meant ON* |
_________________
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- 93 2.3L GL 4 door K2 Donor (Parts For SALE) "Ellie"
- 92 3.0L GL 4 door K3/K2 "The NECROMANCER"
Last edited by MagicPatrick on Aug 14, 2010 - 01:55 AM; edited 3 times in total
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PerformanceWithEconomy
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 14, 2010 - 12:23 AM
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Webmaster
Joined: Dec 23, 2007
Posts: 2335
Location: South Suburbs of Chicago
Status: Offline
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While i'm not familiar with the specific code reader that you purchased, you should be able to clear ALL the codes stored in the memory. You'll have to read the manual as to how to do this with this specific scanner.
Doing so may help to "clean out" the memory, clearing something that could be causing your specific problem. We all know how temperamental "computers" can be and simply accessing the puter / memory via the Code Scanner may have been enough to shake things up. I'm NOT saying that clearing the memory codes absolutely will solve your problem, only that it would give you a clean start to see if something else pops up.
Before clearing out the memory, run BOTH tests that the memory is capable of. That is Key On, Engine Off ( KOEO ) and Key On, Engine Running ( KOER ). Do so after the car has fully warmed up, giving you the most accurate and current readings. Sean
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_________________
92 White / Red 2.3 MTX 130K miles, 93 Cayman Green / Grey 2.3 MTX 140K miles, 94 White / Grey 2.3 MTX 196K miles, 94 Red / Grey 2.3 ATX 70K miles, SouthSide Chicago
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MagicPatrick
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 14, 2010 - 01:12 AM
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Member
Joined: Aug 02, 2009
Posts: 205
Location: Williamsport, Pa
Status: Offline
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Here's the thing, and even raised a few eyebrows at autozone when I went back. (video is still loading) The code puller didnt respond like the instructions said. It stated within 10 seconds to 1 minute of switching to test relays and possibly the fan would come on. IT NEVER DID! The PCM never "engaged" until my second attempt. Remember I said the check engine light never comes on>? Let me be more specific now, yes it's never came on while the engine is RUNNING, nor (pay close attn here) does it ever light when in the ON* position when I'm experiencing this fuel pump problem! When it does work correctly, the light DOES come on, until starting the car.
Manager at autozone, 'thinks' it maybe connections on my ignition tumbler. It's the only variable that changes from one start to the next. If it doesn't work, and I try and try and try again then does all the sudden... Jimminy crickets could he be right? I just spent the past hour on my head under the steering column digging around for relays. When pulling on the one side panel this long wrapped bundle of wires seemed really loose. (this was directly below the pcm) at the very very end was a connector and a relay.
Part #'s
F198-9345
A1A-7335
In the electrical manual, under the 'locations' section shows a connector C-205 in that specific area. Might I add the harness I found under my dash looked just like the Napa part for the pump relay. I went through the electrical/vacuum manual over and over, and guess what... No ladder diagram including C-205. I might have missed it? This may or may not even be within the ball park. But atleast I'm trying! Coincidentally, the fuel pump connector at the sender >> C-405.
Ugghh, my head hurts... |
_________________
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- 93 2.3L GL 4 door K2 Donor (Parts For SALE) "Ellie"
- 92 3.0L GL 4 door K3/K2 "The NECROMANCER"
Last edited by MagicPatrick on Aug 14, 2010 - 02:21 AM; edited 1 time in total
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diehard
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 14, 2010 - 01:28 AM
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Posting Freak
Joined: Sep 26, 2003
Posts: 688
Location: canada
Status: Offline
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It looks like a flasher, square block.
It should be under the glove box on fire wall, below dash.
Some have 4 prongs, some have 5, some have 6 prongs. |
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MagicPatrick
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 14, 2010 - 01:32 AM
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Member
Joined: Aug 02, 2009
Posts: 205
Location: Williamsport, Pa
Status: Offline
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Haynes manual states (page 6-4) the fuel pump relay was only used
1985 through 1991. In 1992 it was incorporated into the CCRM/IRCM
*In the 93' Ford service manual page 18-01-19 (view c)
Depicts a fuel pump or power window relay location.
I'm still searching for what C-205 is, just for future reference.
So... We're back to the codes. Now that I have it running I'll try the second test. I took video of the first hoping to get a second opinion. I can't tell if it was a 43 or 33. And why in the heck is the code chart different in the haynes manual and the Actron booklet. (Although it did say refer to model specific manuals for more info) #33 in Haynes is Cannister or EGR valve not operating properly.
Let's have a look at the video and see what you guys think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEt2A_GSuLQ
KOEO Codes received @ 4:44
Edits* |
_________________
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- 93 2.3L GL 4 door K2 Donor (Parts For SALE) "Ellie"
- 92 3.0L GL 4 door K3/K2 "The NECROMANCER"
Last edited by MagicPatrick on Aug 14, 2010 - 03:10 AM; edited 1 time in total
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